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9:43 pm
Sat 31-Jul-10
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Michelle from Oregon
| | Oregon, USA | |
|  Councillor | posts 1238 | 
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Rae Mond said:
at the risk of stirring a hornets' nest, is it not possible to be both pro-life and pro-choice?
I think so too. I am pro-choice, but I really hope that the choice you make is life.
Rae, there is one other option that I don't know if you considered or not, and that is adoption.
Dan and I met and married when I was 32 and he was 33. We just passed our 7th anniversary, (so anyone doing the math, I'm 40 now) and due to some medical concerns on my part, I don't think I should give birth. I'm the one that gets stuck with whats left of my body afterward, and I just don't think its a good idea. Dan and I our starting the adoption process, and hope to do keep a sibling group together, (2 or 3 kids), and take them out of the system.
The reason I bring this up is that being child-free is what I wanted for the longest time. Our lifestyle was very on-the-go, and truthfully, we were both very selfish. You can change lots in 7 years, and now we are in a very different place. So, just because no kids is the best choice for you now, (and I'm not trying to change it, honestly!) if you do find yourself in a different place, its not too late to change your mind.
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If you can't be a shining example, be a terrible warning!
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9:50 pm
Sat 31-Jul-10
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danast
| | Argyll, Scotland | |
|  Supreme Being | posts 5024 | |
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 Michelle what a beautiful, open and honest post. I wish you all the best in the adoption process.  I am sure we will hear much more on this. As I said before, we all evolve with time and what we hold as an important value to us now can change as we grow older. Never say never!!!
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Old teachers never die, they just lose their class
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10:04 pm
Sat 31-Jul-10
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brightspark
| | Wilts | |
| Supreme Being | posts 4657 | |
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Michelle, if you and Dan can achieve taking 2 or 3 children out of the system. Well done you two!
Our two children were born when I was in my late twenties, and by the time ten years had passed, I thought I would like more, but we felt that when so many children are, as you put it, in the system, then why not try to help those children instead.
Our son insisted that our life was our choice, and if we wanted to do that, he was fine with it. Our daughter didn't feel the same though, so regrettably we didn't continue down that route.
Our two children are very precious to us both, and we often feel we have been very lucky with two such wonderful people.
So, for that reason, I wish you and Dan a great happiness – both for you two and the children who will be lucky enough to be part of your family.
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"I tried to contain myself, but I escaped."
Gina Birch
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11:10 pm
Sat 31-Jul-10
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Shereen
| | Near Belfast, Northen Ireland | |
|  Expert | posts 780 | |
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Rae Mond said:
check this out, more detailed thoughts on this subject may follow, but I'm having trouble marshalling them, and hate typing anything lengthy on this keyboard.
My maternal genes never kicked in and I've known since I was no age that I didn't want children. The only thing that would change that would have been if G had really, really wanted a child.
Friends of mine, on the other hand, have known they want children since they weren't more than children themselves.
And in an ideal world we would all be free to make our choices within the bounds of our own lives and relationships. But I get warned about my biological clock, and my friend gets warned that an only child is a bad idea. It's hard to handle the advice, because the givers mean well.
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11:20 pm
Sat 31-Jul-10
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Shereen
| | Near Belfast, Northen Ireland | |
| Expert | posts 780 | |
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Michelle from Oregon said:
I think so too. I am pro-choice, but I really hope that the choice you make is life.
Rae, there is one other option that I don't know if you considered or not, and that is adoption.
Dan and I met and married when I was 32 and he was 33. We just passed our 7th anniversary, (so anyone doing the math, I'm 40 now) and due to some medical concerns on my part, I don't think I should give birth. I'm the one that gets stuck with whats left of my body afterward, and I just don't think its a good idea. Dan and I our starting the adoption process, and hope to do keep a sibling group together, (2 or 3 kids), and take them out of the system.
Good luck with the adoption process, Michelle (and Dan). And kudos to the pair of you for looking to take on siblings.
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7:00 pm
Sun 1-Aug-10
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devongarden
| | Devon, UK | |
| Councillor | posts 1079 | |
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I don't think anyone should have children because other people think they should, or because they might regret not having them. It isn't done to say you regret having them, so that side of the story isn't allowed to be said out loud.
I did want children, and am glad I have my two. At the time in some ways I would have liked more, but I always felt strongly that on world population and environmental grounds more than 2 is a bad idea. Before I had mine, I thought about fostering or adopting as a way of having more, but once I had two I was exhausted. I don't think that parents being outnumbered makes it easy, and 2 hands, 2 children works too.
Sometimes it seems as if the loudest anti-choice voices are those who also loudest in condemning families too large for their income, who offer no support and condemn all child support programs. For me it is similar to men who are too old to fight supporting or causing wars that kill the young. 
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10:05 pm
Sun 1-Aug-10
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Rae Mond
| | Waalre, NL | |
| Councillor | posts 1062 |
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I knew that this would be a good conversation! In other hands discussion of these sort of topics can get plain ugly, but on here I knew it would be respectful and thoughtful.
I'd say that I'm pro-life, but that this includes the possibility of choosing not to inflict life on something that had no choice in the matter. If a woman doesn't want a child but feels compelled to give birth to one then the chances of it not being loved are surely increased, which is bad in so many ways.
I agree that adoption may be an option ('m a poet and I didn't… realise), but I also think that there are already so many children (not cute little blank slate babies) already born and not in loving homes that the argument that anyone with an unwanted pregnancy should pop it out so that some other couple can have it is specious. And i applaud you and Dan, Michelle, for wanting to give a loving home to some siblings. They will be very lucky children!
Given that the idea of being responsible for the moral guidance of a whole little person is one of the main reasons why I don't want children, I don't see adoption being a plan for me. I know that people change as they grow, and I've learnt not to say never, but I really don't see this changing. I have great respect for people who do want to take that challenge on though.
I also believe in free-will, (and that choices have consequences, but that's for another day), and that God gave humans free will because blind obedience means nothing. So the moral argument for criminalising or de-legalising abortion is inherently flawed.You can't legislate morality, so someone who would abort an unwanted pregnancy for any reason (because to carry to term could be hazardous to health, because it was the result of rape, because it's apparent that the child would be severely disabled, because finances don't allow, or just because the child plain isn't wanted) isn't able to have one safely and legally isn't any more spiritually saved or whatever. Also making abortion illegal won't stop them happening, but it will make them a lot less safe, and lead to greater exploitation of vulnerable women and girls. Which I doubt my God would approve of, at least I hope not. We'll have to have words otherwise.
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11:31 pm
Sun 1-Aug-10
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KateUK
| | uk | |
| Councillor | posts 1648 | |
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and my friend gets warned that an only child is a bad idea.
Goodness! People do say some unhelpful things!
Every family is different, every child is unique.
Some children flourish as only children and some flourish as siblings.
Some parents can cope with more than one child, for others one is enough.
The one thing we all have in common when parenting is that, despite any advice, despite reading all the right books, despite watching all the right programmes we end up making it up as we go along.
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3:23 am
Mon 2-Aug-10
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Michelle from Oregon
| | Oregon, USA | |
| Councillor | posts 1238 |
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danast said:
Michelle what a beautiful, open and honest post. I wish you all the best in the adoption process. I am sure we will hear much more on this. As I said before, we all evolve with time and what we hold as an important value to us now can change as we grow older. Never say never!!!
brightspark said:
Michelle, if you and Dan can achieve taking 2 or 3 children out of the system. Well done you two!
Shereen said:
Good luck with the adoption process, Michelle (and Dan). And kudos to the pair of you for looking to take on siblings.
Thank you Ladies for your well wishes, and if prayers are something that you do, I would not say no, please don't send any my way!
Since we are going to be working with Child Protective Services, we have classes to take, 384'ish questions to answer, a 2 month background check, homestudies, and heaven knows what else to wade through.
We did have a good moment a couple of days back. Dan and I had just gotten through, in my opinion, what would be the worst class we would have to attend, that being the class on abuse. It was an introduction to some of the horrors that a child would possibly have indured before they were taken away from their parents. Just watching Dan listen to what the caseworker/teacher of the class had to say, and watching his jaw set, knowing that his doubts over adopting were gone, because he knew somebody really needed him.
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If you can't be a shining example, be a terrible warning!
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8:58 pm
Mon 2-Aug-10
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Danny
| | Newmarket, England | |
| Admin
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This is a topic primarily for women, I know, and men's comments cannot encompass an understanding of female hormones because they have never been there. End of.
However, I will add these observations:
1 – Rae "Rants 'R' Us" Mond – you have a talent for expressing your thoughts lucidly and cogently. Like I said before, you might great satisfaction from a career in writing, although it is a hugely competitive arena and success is far from guaranteed. Like my Fiona, your write far better than the vast majority of newspaper/magazine columnists that I have read. Keep those rants coming, girl.
2 – Your choices are personal and yours alone. sod the begrudgers.
3 – I know that women can vary from those who simply have no desire to have children to those whose first remembered thoughts were "I want babies". Your expressed preference is far from unnatural. No guilt required. One of our best friends feels the same as you do.
4 – There have been some real words of wisdom expressed following Rae's post. You guys are so balanced and great contributors.
Now I am getting out of here! 
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2:25 pm
Tue 3-Aug-10
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Toffeeapple
| | North Bucks | |
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2:28 pm
Tue 3-Aug-10
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MOS
| | Cannock Chase | |
| Councillor | posts 1581 | |
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GOOD LUCK xxxxxxxxxx sleep tight
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sit down with a cupa and the urge will subside
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6:27 pm
Tue 3-Aug-10
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Toffeeapple
| | North Bucks | |
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Thanks MOS! After all that time, it was bloody Microsoft downloading updates that was stopping everything. It is supposed to ask me if I want to download them before it does so – it must be male, it ignores everything I tell it! 
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7:56 pm
Tue 3-Aug-10
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devongarden
| | Devon, UK | |
| Councillor | posts 1079 | |
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TA, I agree! I get cross with Microsoft frequently, when it says Office needs updating, and it takes ages, and then I need to restart the machine anyway, whereas Mac updates things without needing to restart the computer.
My rant for the day is the travel agent, where there was no progress on our plans and no one said the person we thought we had an appointment with today wasn't there. They can get us things as cheaply as we can find them on the internet, and if we have problems they get to sort them out–sounds like a good deal to me. But this afternoon we were both fit to be tied. We did get a few other things done, like getting me a box of paper (5 reams is too heavy to bring home on the bus). But, all in all,
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11:38 am
Wed 4-Aug-10
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Toffeeapple
| | North Bucks | |
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Barbara, that must be so frustrating for you – you have my sympathy and I hope it gets sorted out very soon.
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